We Could Mention Vogue Italia Again...

posted by Chic Inspector

May 28, 2008 4:03PM

Thanks Jazzi I will definitely tune in ;)

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 4:04PM

Here we go...

posted by disneyrollergirl

May 28, 2008 4:20PM

Um, what does BET stand for?

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 4:30PM

How does saying "no ethnic girls" differ from their other forms of discrimination- i.e weight, height, body type... the fashion industry is obviously not working toward an inclusive ideal of beauty, and it is hypocritical when they act as if they are. What is even worse is that those labeled as "ethnic" are usually biracial and don't actually represent an ethnic perspective on beauty at all, other than darker skin tone.

posted by Softel

May 28, 2008 4:34PM

excellent, will be tuning in!

Disneyrollergirl you can't be serious nor think that's a funny remark... or do you live in another hemisphere?!

black entertainment television.

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 4:46PM

Even though I'm not white, I do have to mention that I've also seen ads for "ethnic /exotic girls only".

posted by kijjalyn

May 28, 2008 4:49PM

I despise BET and have boycotted them for years, but I will watch this. Or at least DVR it.

posted by Modupe

May 28, 2008 4:51PM

i have had it set for tivo since monday, thanks 4 mentioning it hear

posted by Jazzi

May 28, 2008 5:01PM

guest 4:46 -
of course, i've seen these too, no form of discrimination in the workplace is acceptable. but for the sake of this special, i'm pretty sure there's not a lack of white girls in fashion. just sayin'...

kijjalyn -
agreed, i'm not a fan of BET either for many reasons. but i am always excited to see people bring to light issues that others shy away from.

xo Jazzi

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 5:06PM

i don't think calling for "no ethnic girls" is discriminatory so much as specifying the needs of the job. i wouldn't find a "no caucasian girls" sign offensive, it just means that a certain type of girl would work better for that particular job... just like specifying hair color. this is kind of off point but just sayin'.

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 5:10PM

Im looking forward to the discussion being opened up. Fashion is for all people so it would be nice to see all of us (black, white, hispanic, asian, indian, etc.) in runways and magazines in America.

I know its a business built on exclusion (just look at the prices) but it would be nice to be able show our beautiful children of color people that look like them in the industry. We dont have to be the majority but it would be nice to stop pretending we dont exist.

posted by bastylefilegirl

May 28, 2008 5:10PM

"posted by guest

May 28, 2008 4:46PM

Even though I'm not white, I do have to mention that I've also seen ads for "ethnic /exotic girls only". "

I also find that offensive, the ads should say " model wanted". Its so weird that anyone hiring a model would limit themselves so much and not take a look at a girl in there clothes regardless of color. I'm sure they would be surprised who looks good in what.

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 5:50PM

4:30 I agree that the fashion industry isn't inclusive but the idea that models of mixed ethnicities are less representative of models with african descent is a bit skewed in my opinion. after all, most people in the americas of afican descent are mixed with european, and aboriginal or first nation's ethnicities. also the idea of "black" and "white" features is pretty much a stereotype. africa is the 2nd largest continent on earth with hundreds of individual ethnic groups and even more variations in skin tones than any continent . yes, there are features that are more prevalent in places but an african with a pointier nose and naturally wavy or straight hair like liya kebede is still just as african as alek wek who has curly hair and a shorter nose. if variations in features made people less of their ethnicity, then i guess all the europeans without blond hair ,light eyes, and pale skin aren't representative of european beauty?
i do not mean this as an attack on your opinion and i agree that that the powers that be in fashion would probably choose someone they stereotype as having "white features" before some they deem as "too ethnic", which is completely unfair and reprehensible. but the idea that people of multiethnic backgrounds are unfit to represent or have to choose between their backgrounds is also quite unfair, especially since that would include most people considered to be "black" in north and south america. even i, as an african (not african-american) have some european ancestry that is not very far remove in generations at all. i wouldn't consider myself less african but i think all multiethnic people have a right to all of their history and shouldn't choose or be compartmentalised into stereotypical categories.

i personally think that hiring models with dark skin, light skin, and everything between is a step in the right direction. hopefully, fashion will realise models of african, european, asian, and first nation's descent can all be "aspirational," but even an optimist such as myself knows that, if the few non-european editorial models continue to only be pushed in sterotypical ways (i.e., grace jones copycat editorials, "african warrior jungle themes", geisha girl themes, and other caricature,etc.) they're versatility is never going to be showcased. when fashion realises that non-euro models can also do innocent, edgy, androgynous, and that they can all have different looks and features (dollface/alien, amazon, "cool" girl) instead of all being lumped into one category and compared to one another, maybe then they'll be one step closer to realising light skin isn't the only thing that sells.

posted by la creme

May 28, 2008 6:20PM

I'll be very interested in how the BET special tackles the topic; will it simply point out discrimination, or will it attempt to dissect the reasoning behind exclusion of certain types from certain brands? Better yet, will there be anonymous testimonials? Something else-that is completely non-fashion-related-is how every single cleaning product commercial features a woman, and, you know, she's just sooooo excited about it. So, femmes and hommes, how do we can change it? Does life imitate art, or does art imitate life? If you want to see change, be change.

xo la creme.etsy.com

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 6:40PM

to guest at 5:50- I wasn't trying to say bi-racial people are not representative of ethnic beauty, but trying to point out that people who are not white don't have many role models or people presented to them in media who represent another form of beauty- the images are manipulated to make them look more caucasian by choosing people with light skin, relaxed hair, etc. I don't think that by including only light skinned blacks with caucasian features that they are actually representing black women or a more "diverse" ideal of beauty, since the models are not different in any other aspect than the generic white models other than having a slightly darker skin tone- I think a broad range of body types and features should be represented.

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 6:44PM

guest @ 4:30-- I agree.

I personally think that no one should be looked over because of their ethnicity, and in a perfect world, race would be a non-issue.

However, you can't deny that the modeling industry IS an industry based solely on outside appearance, and sometimes a certain look works better than others for a particular product/editorial/etc.

I'm just reiterating what someone else said, but in the modeling world, discrimination by race really is no different than discrimination by hair color, height, body type, etc.

That being said, more diversity is always welcomed, and I'm glad BET is airing this.

posted by etoilee8

May 28, 2008 6:46PM

Softel, Disneyrollergirl lives on another continent so unfluster yourself. (BET doesn't really have such a huge sphere of influence. . . whether or not you realize it). And there's plenty of people on this continent that have no idea what BBC stands for. . .

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 7:18PM

race and ethnicity just shouldn't matter, whether you are black, white, asian, biracial, etc. i honestly dont buy that certain aesthetics require girls of a particular ethnicity to represent them-- we need to allow our idea of beauty to include people of all colors, and while discrimination based on age, height, weight etc can be damaging as well, racial discrimination is on a whole different level.

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 7:22PM

i do see what you mean guest 4:30, i apologise if you feel i misconstrued or misunderstood your opinion in my comment at 5:50 :). really, no snark intended!

posted by Jac

May 28, 2008 7:28PM

I'd like to see more diversity represented in modeling--simply because I know that there are a ton of beautiful women out there. I get flustered about race issues quite frequently, but, as much as I enjoy hearing about it, the modeling industry is a terribly superficial thing.

posted by Softel

May 28, 2008 7:43PM

Not flustered etoilee, I really wasn't sure if that was sarcasm or not, that's all. And yes, I know it doesn't have a huge sphere.
thanx for clearin that up tho.

posted by guest

May 28, 2008 11:38PM

Great topic for the industry. This can only be a good thing.

Note: British ed of Bazaar has Liyla K. on the cover. I bought my copy and I don't to destroy it in any way. I want to keep it as a collectors issue. Why, b/c it's one of a kind & rare.

posted by guest

May 29, 2008 12:02AM

I think BET is the one making this a race issue. high fashion is not only for the rich americans. Japan, Russia, Arab, rich Indians , rich Chinese also attend the shows. If the wealthy clienteles prefer to see more caucasian and some ethnic it's their perogative. It is not as if you do not see black models at all.

As an american we cannot keep imposing our democracy or ethics to other nations. Why do you think we are so hated around the world?

posted by guest

May 29, 2008 12:56AM

As a women of color I used to be angry with the fashion industry and how they rarely use models of different ethnicity on the runway, as well as adds.

However, I've come to realize that the fashion industry is a business. Similar to the weight issue, the fashion industry is trying sell their products to the largest audience possible.

This is why their are few Asian models in the industry. The middle class in some Asian country's tend to buy products that are more Western. Designers use none "Asian" looking models to appeal to this crowd who can afford their products.

But I would like to see fashion designers become more creative with the models that they choose.

posted by guest

May 29, 2008 10:08AM

Uh, to whoever made the comment about the clients being russian, asian, blah blah: it's kind of irrelevant who those clients are. Their purchases (rtw, couture) don't drive the industry--accessories and small items are the money makers, by far. And I'm sure the buyers for those profit-making items is much, much broader.

Besides, you don't think that many of those clients--most are actually from wealthy Arab states--would like to see something that represents them? And if not, why are they being told/sold that white is aspirational, better than dark or ethnic? That doesn't make sense.

That said, I'm not a Benneton-ideal fan; in fact, I hate blatant PC "one model from every ethnicity" stuff. But I think models of color can work well in many more ways than they do now. I think of the Gucci ads from years ago with the model (Liya?) holding a baby, and it was perfect. I just think people need to be open to the fact that the right model for the job may, in fact, be black.

posted by bastylefilegirl

May 29, 2008 11:11AM

"I'm just reiterating what someone else said, but in the modeling world, discrimination by race really is no different than discrimination by hair color, height, body type, etc."

I'm sorry discrimination by race is totally diffrent than any other discrimination, just for the simple fact that most of the other examples you gave are things people can change/modify about themselves. Race is also an issue because in the the U.S as we know it was founded on a form of racism where a black person wasn't equal to a white person and this carried out long beyond slavery, and is still being seen today not just in modeling but our politics. There are people in W. Virgina that are open enough to say in exit polls that race played a factor in them not voting for Barack Obama!

posted by guest

May 29, 2008 11:29AM

I just love how "white" and all the many caucasian groups and mixes falling under that umbrella aren't "ethnic." also, why, in fashion, is "ethnic" so often a synonym for "tribal"?

posted by guest

May 29, 2008 11:56AM

Some of the stuff up there is INSANE! I don't get this- no one seems to have mentioned including the poster of this that, what about if you are FAT & BLACK? How do you discriminate against that?

This argument is redundant as it is illogical. Race is not an equal to being FAT!?

Jesus how depressing. I think the responses here say a lot about maybe why their are only white models on the mags and the runaway. Despite the fact that Italian Vogue saw fit to highlight this point along with the revered Nick KNight, posters on this blog have IGNORED what people in the INDUSTRY have said and claimed that they are, what, lying?

Woooh...

posted by guest

May 29, 2008 1:51PM

back in the mid-90's a British modeling agency I worked for used to call one of their girls (bi-racial) a "half-breed," as in "I've got a lovely half-breed for you."
brings up some bad connotations, yes?

posted by disneyrollergirl

May 29, 2008 7:04PM

Thanks Etoilee8 for speaking up for me. Sorry if I sounded like I was being sarcastic, I'm in the UK and even though I read Fashionista daily I've never heard of BET!

Interestingly, I worked on launching a fashion magazine in India a few months ago. It was aimed at the Indian middle classes and they wanted very little reference to Indian-ness. To them it seems that western = modern and they don't want models that look 'ethnic', they want white girls or light-skinned girls. I guess this is also bound up in their caste system (the lighter the skin, the higher the caste) but I was shocked and had assumed they would want to see models that look like them. Not necessarily.

posted by guest

May 29, 2008 7:58PM

disneyrollergirl= i have the same response from my Japanese customers. They love to see a Gemma, a Daria, in magazines.

posted by guest

May 29, 2008 9:13PM

COMMENTING ON "I think BET is the one making this a race issue. high fashion is not only for the rich americans. Japan, Russia, Arab, rich Indians , rich Chinese also attend the shows. If the wealthy clienteles prefer to see more caucasian and some ethnic it's their perogative. It is not as if you do not see black models at all.

As an american we cannot keep imposing our democracy or ethics to other nations. Why do you think we are so hated around the world?"

when we talk about this, we arent trying to degrade anyone. this is different from us imposing immoral ideas on others. the reason these cultures and peoples "prefer" to see caucasians only is b/c of the long history of racism from the past saying white is the only beauty being forced on them unwillingly (slavery, colonialism,etc). i think there is beauty in all races and we all like to wear clothes so if there is an equal distribution of models in a show no one should be insulted...SIMPLE. what is the problem with that??!!

posted by fashionista91

May 30, 2008 7:40AM

all i can say is wow, the fashion industry has come a long way in accepting models of different races but unfortunately the end of discrimination in the fashion world is not going to happen overnight. The fashion world is a business where all they care about is the best way to sell their product. Look how long it took to lessen the amount of anorexic models that were gracing the runways and glossy magazine pages. Something of this magnitude takes time.

posted by bastylefilegirl

May 30, 2008 12:31PM

Post show comment:

The show was pretty good, but too short. And they did speak of "white" models as ethnic e.g. Eastern European, European. There was also a mention of non black models as well being discriminated against. A Manager for a modeling agency mention that he has seen signs that said " no asians, no blacks". The fact that black designers are taking a stand is admirable even though it forces them to do " all black" shows to make a point or how obsurde it is to have one "look" on the runway.

posted by guest

Jun 03, 2008 9:53PM

disneyrollergirl - this is totally off topic, but it's very interesting that you mention skin colour in India. I am of Indian origin and have very light skin. I was surprised when I learned that lighter skin is coveted in India, because having been raised in North America, I've always wished that my skin were more tan!!

Having said that, light skin and sharp features are considered attractive there, and have been for generations - long before the New India became interested in the Western fashion world. I think it's because they're associated with wealth and health, which is why full figured women are still more attractive there.

Markers of wealth and health are also what's considered attractive and fashionable here (the poor in North America are heavy and obese due to cheap, chemicalized "foods", not elegant and slim)